In the Supreme Court of Western Australia No. 1676 of 1993
Date of Document: 23 February 1994
Filed on behalf of: The First and Second Defendants
Date of filing: 1994
Arnold Bloch Leibler Solicitor Code: 54
Solicitors & Consultants DX: 455
Level 21 Tel: 629 7444
333 Collins Street Ref: AHN:934829:KAV
MELBOURNE VIC 3000 (Mr A H Northam)
This is the exhibit marked "AHN12" referred to by ANTHONY HUGH NORTHAM in his Affidavit sworn this 23rd day of February 1994.
NEIL MITCHELL (0900) 17.09.93
INTERVIEW WITH HISTORIAN, DAVID IRVING
COMPERE: As I mentioned earlier, David Irving, at this stage, is free to come to Australia following court decision yesterday.
There's a possibility of the Federal Government appealing, although it's still not yet clear whether they will.
On the line from London now, David Irving, good morning.
DAVID IRVING: Good morning or good evening, we're just after midnight here in London, of course.
COMPERE: Yes. When will you be coming to Australia?
IRVING: That is still classified information, I'm afraid. Obviously because of the heightened danger of disruption of my tour, I'm going to have to adopt special security measures concerning what date I'm arriving.
We have immediately started planning the tour, but I'm not going to reveal when it is or any details about which direction across the continent I'm coming.
COMPERE: What, you believe it could be that dangerous?
IRVING; I have to be realistic about it. The people who have tried to prevent me from coming to Australia for the past six months have not hesitated to use the dirtiest tricks so far. They have now been shown up, I think, by the law courts in Australia.
The three judges have ruled that I am entitled to come in and they've ordered The Ministry of Immigration to come back with a decision, taken this time within the law, but the people who are my opponents are going to operate outside the law and I have to be realistic about it, I'm afraid.
COMPERE: In a sense, that almost supports the government's reason for refusing you entry. They said to bring you here could incite violence.
IRVING: Yes. i can't appreciate that but, of course I'm not gong to be the one committing the criminal acts. It's the people who are trying to stop me speaking who will be committing the criminal acts.
And to make me the victim of somebody else's criminality which is what the government, by its previous decision, was doing is, I think, an injustice and an offence to natural justice which the judges have now recognised in their decision.
COMPERE. Can you tell us, then, how long you'll be in the country? It was originally intended you'd spend a month here.
IRVING: I think this time we're looking at six weeks because of the increased interest. A lot of Australians have contacted me in the intervening months and have written me letters. A lot of students want to hear me speak. A lot of students want to hear me debate, in fact, and if anybody's willing to debate against me, then I'm not frightened. I'm perfectly capable of holding my own in debate.
COMPERE: Yes, I'd like to get to that in a moment, but, in a sense, this, what the government has done has helped you, hasn't it? It's helped your cause because it's given it more attention?
IRVING: That wasn't my intention. I think the opponents have scored what we in England would call an own goal. If they had left me alone to repeat what I've done in Australia on two or three previous occasions, I would have spoken to small rural community audiences, sometimes as small as five or six people and so to which, again and again, I've been able to speak by satellite television or by the radio telephone link to millions of Australians and so they're able to form their own Impressions.
I do appreciate that a lot of Australians will not hold my views but I want my views to be heard.
COMPERE. I'd suggest to you the majority of Australians probably don't support your views but perhaps some support your right to put them.
IRVING: I don't think they know my views yet. My views haven't really properly been put to the Australians. Very distorted views have been put to the Australians by my opponents.
For example, they call me a Holocaust denier. That's a cheap shot. I'm not a Holocaust denier. I'm a Holocaust questioner. I'm not prepared to buy the whole package, but even that isn't true, because I've not written any books about the Holocaust. I've not even written any articles about the Holocaust.
COMPERE: They also say that you incite racism and support Nazi views?
IRVING: These are the tactics they've had to use to try and get me banned from Australia. These are people with a vested interest in protecting their own particular legend and in order to try and get me banned, they've had to put about these perfectly absurd stories about me holding racist views and making racist speeches and the rest of it.
They've done it by pasting together pieces of newsreel film, by photo montages, by outrageous lies about what I've said and, in fact, a lot of these people are now trembling in their shoes because now I'm coming in person to Australia I'm going to prosecute these people with the full majesty of the law.
COMPERE: Prosecute them for defamation?
IRVING: Indeed, yes. We've started five libel action against newspapers and against individual personalities in Australia already and I think a lot more are now going to follow now can come in person to prosecute these people.
COMPERE. That seems a I little strange for a man who has sort of got contentious views and arguing the rights of free speech, that you head to the courts when the debate is raised.
I mean, free speech goes both ways, doesn't it?
IRVING: Free speech does cut both ways but when somebody stands up as my opponents did and said 'Mr. Irving has served prison sentences in Germany', which is just an outrageous lie, then what am I supposed to do? Just grin and bear it and say 'Oh, well that's your opinion'? It's not an opinion, it's somebody stating a statement of fact which is an outrageous barefaced lie. Why should I put up with it?
COMPERE: The one that's perhaps gained the most currency is that you have attended and supported a number of neo Nazi or Fascist rallies in various parts around the world. Is that true?
IRVING: I've seen when this matter was debated in Australia four or five months ago, there was a newsreel clip repeatedly being shown showing me addressing a rally in Eastern Germany in Halla on the back of a truck, and then they clipped into it scenes of skinheads giving the Hitler salute and so on.
What they didn't show on the television film was me immediately rounding on these people and saying, 'You idiots, why are you giving these outdated slogans from the past. Why are you shouting these slogans from the past when you young people are Germany's future?
COMPERE: Why were you even addressing a Neo Nazi rally?
IRVING: It wasn't a Neo Nazi rally. Just because people come along and listen to speakers in Germany doesn't make it a Neo Nazi rally, but this is the kind of label which is used by opponents to smear me.
COMPERE: What was the rally, then?
IRVING: A rally of young East Germans who, I don't know if you know the political situation in East Germany, there's a lot of unemployment there, rather like what's going to happen in Australia under Paul Keating in the next year or two, I think.
There's a lot of very ugly unemployment, a lot of poverty, a lot of desperation and particularly in Eastern Germany the former Communist part of Eastern Germany, the young people are growing increasingly despairing.
I went along and addressed a rally of these young people and warned them that they were Germany's future, that they were Germany's youth and the rest of Germany was looking to them.
COMPERE: Can you tell us what the general thrust of your speaking engagements will be in this country?
IRVING: Oh, very little of it will be about the Holocaust. You wouldn't believe this from the media attention. Most of it's concerned with my 30 years of research as a historian. I've written books about -- I've written 25 or 30 books about Adolf Hitler, about the Third Reich, but also about Winston Churchill, about German atomic research, about the Hungarian uprising, and very little of what I've written is about the Holocaust.
A lot of historical students want to come along and hear me talk about methods of historical research and the need to be able to think sideways, the need to accept that there are different interpretations of history that are possible.
For the British, it's very important. We've got to understand how it is that we lost our empire, how effectively we lost World War Two, having won it, was it right what we did to the empire.
Was it right what we did to the sheep farmers, to the farmers of New South Wales? That kind of thing.
COMPERE: Mr. Irving, look I'm afraid i have to go, but just one last question. Do you accept that your visit will hurt people here?
I mean, I have talked to survivors of the Holocaust. They will hurt. It will disturb them. It will hurt them. Do you accept that?
IRVING: I have to say that I don't give a tuppenny fig if they hurt. They have hurt me very substantially --
COMPERE: Oh, no, no, no, no. But these are just good people who have suffered-
IRVING: --worried about me and now I am coming' to hit back --
COMPERE: No, no, no, no. I'm talking about old people, old women who have lost families amd gpne through it. They have hurt. You've got to give a tuppenny fig about them?
IRVING: You know my very first book was 'The Destruction of Dresden' when we British, the Australians, Canadians, we went over and set alight to a city and we burned 130,000 people alive in the space of half an hour. They hurt too. History has two sides, you see.
COMPERE: Yes, but it doesn't make it -- you have to care about those people.
IRVING: -- tried to monopolise history and now they don't like it that history is going to have two sides again.
COMPERE. So you don't give a tuppenny fig for the survivors?
IRVING: I don't give a tuppenny fig for people who have hurt, who have tried their utmost to hurt me over the last six months, and I'm coming back and they're going to hurt.
COMPERE I'm starting to change my view on whether you should be in this country.
COMPERE Goodbye. Oh.
David Irving. That man claims to have -- oh, he's got a right to his views, the man claims to have compassion. What an absurd thing to say.
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